The Missing Resource?

tl;dr How do you handle writing about the gender of those whose gender is unknown given the facelessness of the internet?

It's 2024; and being the kindly and careful hippo that by maturing I have gradually become, I prefer not to misgender others.

So, when I can remember to do so, and am not at that moment being impatient with the world, I try to use the admittedly awkward "he or she" or "his or hers" when posting to the forum (and hope that even that binary usage will be enough not to cause unnecessary angst). That is, I employ that usage unless I have: 1) previously seen some clear evidence of the other poster's preference (regardless of whether or not it is rooted in genetics); and 2) I manage to remember that evidence at the time I am writing (which, for the older hippo, is not assured); and 3) I'm not at that moment distracted by some other thoughts.

It used to be the convention (much as the Spanish language does with groups) to assume the male gender unless there was clear evidence to the contrary. But now? Many properly (I believe) compensate by doing more typing than we used to do.

I find the extra typing the best, though awkward, solution, and gradually began to lament when I omitted to do it; I wondered, for a time, about the possibility of a "he said / she said" list, which might be consulted when addressing or referencing another member -- but that's a bad idea. Unfortunately, any "list" of personal information can be abused online, so I don't recommend making or adding to any such list.

Much better than a list would be an agreed convention to be used when writing with regard to those about whom we have no dependable personal knowledge. Such a convention is the resource I seek to find. Has Lichess itself weighed in with any pertinent, written suggestion?

In short, I wonder how others manage to handle this writing and thinking task most effectively and comfortably. That's the point of this thread.

What do people feel is the acceptable forum convention for handling the gender of another poster whose preferences are unknown or not properly remembered? And can we all be forgiven if we accidentally screw that up? Since the majority of chess players are (for now, at least) male, is it okay to assume "he" and "his" ?

Given my enormous respect for certain genius Polgars and Cramlings (and many other phenomenal female players now and in history), such an assumption seems unfair and would make me uneasy now. Even hippos can grow wiser as they age.

Furthermore, must I vote a certain way merely because I try, not without some circumstantial failures, to be conscientious about trying to observe gender preference when writing? I think not. There are good and conscientious men (and women) in most parties. I won't say "all" parties, because I have not surveyed them all, and I can imagine some horrors that might or might not exist.

No penis.
No vagina.
No gender.
No flaps.

Indeed, @KNIGHT_c4 , flaps have nothing to do with gender. They have to do with landing. And sometimes with taking off.

I await a suggestion in response. Much like the Nuggets awaited a 3-point shot to go in for them this evening. But, eventually, some shots dropped. I can be no less patient.

I think the simplest way to refer to people when you don't know their gender is to say "they". It seems weird because it sounds like it refers to a plural group of people, but I am pretty sure it is used in these cases where the gender is ambiguous.

There are some people who may request certain specific pronouns...in those cases its probably up to Lichess to add a tag to a person's username indicating their gender, which seems to be the standard policy on a lot of platforms.

It gets a little confusing and controversial with some of the more "exotic" pronouns but we can probably avoid that discussion entirely

Thanks for a serious answer, @kyanite111 .

Using "they" and "them" and "their" doesn't feel any more unwieldy or unnatural than typing "he or she" or "him or her" or "his or hers" over and over. And it cuts down on keystrokes. So that might indeed be a reasonable, perhaps even the best, solution.

On the other hand, I agree that it's a bit weird to use the plural to refer to an individual who is not a monarch. And yet .... some of our members are so superb that they could be mistaken for royalty, or at least royalty like we grew up imagining such folks to be.

Just so long as nobody thinks that I am slyly accusing them of having multiple personality disorder, or even of simply being two-faced, or perhaps of being pudgy, chubby, portly, rotund or obese, if I refer them as "they." (Not that there's anything wrong with having some extra pounds packed on for a rainy day. Just more to love, as the expression goes).

@Noflaps said in #1:
> How do you handle writing about the gender of those whose gender is unknown given the facelessness of the internet?

Depends on how you define Gender.

The first one is the one that common people use. Its a synonym of sex. Where there is a binary sex system in nature, the male is the one with an appendage to inseminate the female, while the female is the one that carry the egg inside its woumb.

The other definition is a word salad that doesnt really say much, but pretty much resemble the definition of personality.

So based on that, you pick which definition you want to use. I use the first one. So I dont really pay attention on how people define themselves, it does not matter, the definition I use is based on sex, an objective fact, So there are only 2 options and only have a 50% chance to miss, though you rarely ask which kind of sex part people have.

Since that definition its the actual common use of the word, "you", "yours", is gender neutral for singular, and "they", "Their" is gender neutral for plural. Its quite rare to actually miss.

If they feel offended, thats their problem, I never intend to offend, I just use common language, they should do it too, else people get confused and think males can be women. Its just word salad, I dont play that game.

@Alientcp , whether one defines gender by genetics or by whim, the problem I face when writing remains to be solved, either way. So far, @kyanite111 has given me the most helpful food for thought, with all due respect.

Indeed, I did not intend to start a debate about "how to define" gender, although that's a perfectly interesting debate to have. My problem was: how can I address or refer to somebody on the internet (where there are often no clues, visual or otherwise) whose gender (however defined) is unknown to me or has slipped my mind.

When no legal rights or impositions upon others are at stake, I don't care how somebody defines their gender. If some towering, hulking, bearded, balding trucker with a hairy back feels pretty, well, that's her business.

But if I'm addressing or referencing said trucker on the internet, there's no point in me adamantly using a pronoun that will cause avoidable heartburn. Live and let live is a pretty dependable motto.

If said trucker wants to join the women's wrestling team in college, well, that's a different discussion for a different thread. Not a thread that I will start, at least not knowingly. I like the song: Don't worry; be happy.

@Noflaps said in #8:
> My problem was: how can I address or refer to somebody on the internet (where there are often no clues, visual or otherwise) whose gender (however defined) is unknown to me.

I already explained. Depends on which definition you use.

I already told you which definition I use, I solve the problem that way.

In common language, with that definition "you", "yours" its gender neutral in singular.

I already addressed you as "you". I dont know what is your sex. I used a word that is not a pronoun, but works as if it was that goes according to the definition I use. I dont need to define gender not state pronouns.

If you use the other definition, I dont know if there are gender neutral pronouns because I dont use that definition, but you are aiming to miss, you have 1 in infinite chances to miss, as there are infinite genders with the second definition.

I solve that problem using the first definition since the language has tools included for that specific case.
You dont need a pronoun. You can refer to a person in many ways, such as "the person that opened the thread" "This person over here". Among others that does not specify gender, or simply "you".

And If I use a pronoun and miss, its easy to correct, I just pick the other.

So pick your poison, 1 in infinite or 1 in 2 to miss. But you do have to pick a definition first. And if you use the most common used definition (the one I use), the chances for missing are even lower, as more than 75% of the population uses that definition.

@Alientcp , I quite agree that "you" works in many sentences. It's when I must chose between "he or she" (or him or her, or his or hers) that I must pause and usually type more than i used to type.

In that situation, you seem to be saying "use several words to describe" the person, perhaps like "the last poster" or "the original poster" or "the poster with all the good jokes." And, in that vein, I could just constantly repeat the person's internet handle, and avoid the use of pronouns entirely, I guess. That seems a bit stilted and unnatural, but I guess it would work, too. So it's not a bad suggestion.

No way of resolving the issue requires me to decide how to define gender, though. No matter how somebody's gender is defined, they must be addressed or referenced at times. And I can't really check anybody's genetics online, even if we decided that genetics alone could resolve the matter. So my question remains, regardless. Unless I'm missing something other than the pie I forgot to buy.